My 2 cents on the 'Marriage' equality issue (not that anyone cares anyway)'




Stop Reading! - If you've made it this far I have a request; Please read the whole post carefully before you a)comment b) get angry c) assume that I'm going to say something horrible and ugly. I'm breaking my lenten penance on the last day of lent to write this.... (so you know I'm serious ;)

So, I have a number of friends on facebook who either;

1. Support the legalization of same-sex 'marriage'

and/or...

2.  they themselves have homosexual tendencies

Yesterday and today as I read peoples posts and comments I was struck by how woven into my life you  all are. You are my friends, past classmates, students, community leaders, teachers or maybe just facebook 'aquaintances'. Regardless, In one way or another you have been, and are in, my life. I want to start by saying, especially to those of you who you yourself have these tendencies;

I'm so sorry.

I'm sorry for people who have said hateful things throughout your life. I'm sorry for posts on facebook or elsewhere by those claiming to be Christians who are ugly and mean. And most of all I'm sorry that these people have given you the impression that the Church shares their hateful sentiment.
Let me tell you, those of us who love the Catholic Church are as perturbed by those people as you are. They literally make whatever hopes we have of a truthful and loving dialogue come to a screeching halt. They make the Church's job waaaay more difficult because instead of spending her time and energy sharing the truth and love of Christ, she has to first make amends for those idiots, whoops, I mean children of God.

I'd like to try to repair your image of those of us who lovingly disagree with you. If you believe that we can disagree and still respect each other while having a loving dialogue to together discover the truth, then keep reading. However, if you're already feeling the urge to call me a bigot I urge you to find that little X in the top right corner of your screen and stop reading now. I don't deserve to be called names any more than you do. :)

Here is what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY teaches about how we are to treat those who have homosexual tendencies (and this is straight from the Catechism so you know its all official and stuff):


CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.




This section of the Catechism changed my faith in college. I had then, as I do today, many friends who were living a homosexual lifestyle and I didn't see anything wrong with it. As I was coming to know more about my faith and foster a genuine relationship with Christ and His Church it was the one issue that I didnt 'get' at all. If this was just about people 'loving each other', I thought, then what was the big deal? (Also, I really liked watching Will & Grace.)

What I came to understand in time was that it is precisely BECAUSE its about people loving each other that it is such a BIG DEAL.


Look, I know the Catholic Church can seem antiquated and restrictive to those who view her from the outside but here's the thing, she only makes a big deal out of things that are actually a BIG DEAL. Here is the first point that those of you on the other side of the fence on this issue and the Church actually agree! You are fighting for this because you know it is so very important. The Church responds with a resounding "YES, IT IS FREAKING IMPORTANT!" (I'm paraphrasing of course). And the thing is you can't have it both ways....either you stick with the broken record phrase "why do you care, it's not hurting you." or you admit that it is an issue of utmost importance to you and to all of society because it deals with who you love, how you live and how you flourish in a society. It either matters, or it doesn't.


Some will say that this is simply a legal issue, that you just want the same legal rights given you that those of us who are married have. I'm calling your bluff on that one. If this were simply a legal issue you wouldn't care if your union was called 'marriage' or 'civil union' or 'supercalafragalisticexpiala-union' as long as it came with the same rights. Right?


But you do care. You care because you know that the word MARRIAGE means ...something. In fact, you know that marriage means a great deal. This is something else we agree completely on.


(you didn't know we agreed so much did you?)

If you still insist at this point that this is simply a legal issue then lets agree to create a new word, title, something, with new laws and call same-sex legal unions something else. You may go now, you are excused.

No? You want to keep the title 'marriage'? Ok then, lets move forward.

Here, my friends, is the REAL question. What IS marriage? Is marriage something that is and has always meant something specific? or is it a word created by the state that can change as our society does? It's got to be one or the other, but not both. This is a valid question and its really the heart of the issue.


The fact is, long before our modern time, since the beginning of time actually, the marriage union has existed as the union of man and woman. Countless cultures have perpetuated the definition of this union in the same way. I'm not even talking about the bible or religion here. AND...homosexuality has also always existed so its not just that we've added a new type of relationship in recent history. So, outside of government (per se) and laws, marriage has always, in a sense, been at the heart of every community of people. Why? Because the first people did it that way and we didnt feel like changing it? No, because the union of man and woman is how children come about and children being born IS how we go on as a human race. Even if you use scientifically engineered ways of going about it you still, at the end of the day, need the union of a man and a woman's genes to create new life. There is no other way to do it.


Why? Because God said so? Maybe, but lets put that aside for a second. The fact is, it is that way...well, because thats just how it is. It IS what it IS. It's not a decision we can make or unmake. It just IS. Look! another thing we agree on! Man stuff and woman stuff makes baby stuff. There is no disagreeing because there is no other option.

That poorly constructed paragraph there is a very simple understanding of those two little words you keep hearing thrown around out there..."natural law". The appeal to natural law is not meant to be something mean, or judgmental. It's simply acknowledging that our bodies work in a certain way and that they always have and always will. We can all agree on that. Our bodies have a meaning that the state did NOT define and that meaning is meant to inform and symbolize the marital union.

Ok, you're saying, but marriage is not simply so that we can make babies, its also about love and happiness.


See, we just keep agreeing! You'll be happy to know that the Catholic Church agrees with you there too. (surprising I know) She teaches that marriage is for procreation AND the bond of the couple. Cool. The thing is, you can't separate the meaning of our bodies and how THEY bond with the emotional commitment.

Why not? Because if you separate it then you're saying that marriage IS only about love and happiness. If it's ONLY about love and happiness and thats the definition we're sticking with then there are all KINDS of options. I could marry my father, or my son...or my mom for that matter. Groups of people could marry each other. I'm sure we could think of all kinds of interesting combinations. The fact is, if marriage does not already have an unchanging meaning then it can and must change constantly to fit the needs of a changing society. I dare you to find one serious historian who thinks thats a good idea for the flourishing of a society.  Go on..... I'll wait.

Seriously though, unless you want to say that the definition of marriage is strictly the union of one man and one woman or one man and one man or one woman and one woman who are unrelated and keep it exactly at that, you have to allow for any number of options. But that strict definition doesnt seem very 'tolerant' to those people who really feel like they are in love with their sibling and that marrying them would make them happy, does it?

Maybe some of you are ok with those kinds of unions, but I know most of you and I don't think you would be. If you insist that 'equal' means anyone and anywhere then you must be willing to promote this whole campaign all over again when others are denied 'marriage' because their significant other is their sister, or their father or because their significant other happens not to be human. What? If it's just about love and happiness.....?

The bottom line is this, marriage has meant something very specific and that meaning has come from the heart of culture from the beginning of time and from the meaning of our bodies. If we're going to say we have the right to change that definition and we're actually going to CHANGE the definition of marriage, which is what this whole issue is about..(changing the definition), then we have to agree to allow any number of options come along with that change.

Those of us who disagree with you on this issue, disagree because we actually AGREE that marriage is something unique and special and specific that has a meaning. If it is something true already, truth can't just be changed because we want it to be. To quote the great G.K. Chesterton, "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” 

Furthermore, by disagreeing with you on this I believe that I AM loving you. Penn Jillette, a famous atheist once said "How much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate someone to believe that everlasting life is possible and not tell them that?" . If I believe this with all of my heart, mind and soul and I say that I love you yet I DON'T share it with you then my love means nothing. Tolerance is NOT love.


I say, those who say they believe in what the Church teaches and DON'T challenge you on this, don't really love you as much as they say they do. I give my children rules BECAUSE I love them. I risk being disliked because I want them to be safe, healthy and holy.

Let me close by saying, I cannot begin to imagine the cross that you carry. I am a broken, sinful human being who just wants other broken, sinful human beings (because there are no other type of humans) to know Christ and His Church and ultimately to live eternally with Him. Thats it. I don't get some sort of financial or emotional kick back by disagreeing. In fact, by disagreeing on this particular issue I get to be scorned, called names and looked down upon. I get to be stereotyped, called a bigot and not listened to. And, as we are already seeing in the news, disagreeing on this particular issue might very likely get me arrested one day. (Don't roll your eyes, its happening already in other countries and here.) So, I can't understand your particular cross, but I do understand the cross. It's not an easy one to carry for either one of us and I wish we could both be free of it but I don't see that happening any time soon.

It's holy week my friends, lets carry the cross together.


I hope this can be the start of a loving conversation about truth. I am praying for each one of you and asking for your fervent prayers as well.



More posts by people who, unlike me, always put commas in the right place:


READ THIS!!
http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/10339/Rebuttals-to-arguments-for-samesex-marriage.aspx#.UVPEtNuQRPk.facebook

Here is an article that explains the point in a much more eloquent way then I ever could.
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/03/7912/

And, here is an interesting article from the viewpoint of a Gay Catholic young adult.
http://lifeteen.com/gay-catholic-and-doing-fine/













Comments

  1. Thought you'd like to see what you've done.

    My aunt shared this with me, and while I still disagree with her stance on gay marriage, I thought I'd share it. Civil discourse is good.

    Discuss. And please, keep it polite.

    http://absurdanddignified.blogspot.com/2013/03/my-2-cents-on-marriage-equality-issue.html

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  2. Fr. Bryce, I am certain you don't remember me, but we were classmates in 1998-99 at NAC. I was a Detroit seminarian at the time. Anyhow, just wanted to thank you for an astonishingly great post here!!! Thanks so much for your ministry!

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  3. I actually agree with you about marriage but the argument you make is mostly theological. It is based ultimately upon religious beliefs. Those who do not share these religious beliefs see the catechism as an affront. They do not believe they are objectively disordered and, for the most part, reject the Church's teaching on marriage altogether.

    On the issue on the definition of marriage, there are many changes that have taken place within cultures that have taken centuries. So can one legitimately argue that because something has always been this way, it must be this way forever? Just one example, because for millenia women were believed to be the property of their husbands, and because of this all their property actually belonged to their husbands, should this still be the foundation upon which society governs the rights of women to own property?

    I am looking at this from a distinctly American persective. I have religious doctrine in which I believe, and that I believe is the truth, but I also know that in this country my religious beliefs are not supposed to take precedence over others'.

    We have been crying out for religious liberty over Obamacare, and those who disagree with the Church on homosexuality and the nature of marriage look at us and are dumbfounded at what they see as hypocrisy where on one hand we insist on religious freedom, and yet on the other hand, deny it to those with whom we disagree. Are not the supporters of same sex marriage asking just for that, the freedom to live outside the boundaries of our theology?

    I can mourn what is happening. But I find it incredibly difficult to also make the argument that because I know something to be true, that I have the right to force someone to live according to a truth to which they do not subscribe. Is that not the very nature of religious freedom?

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    1. Well for one thing this is not change that occurred over time. The speed with which the re-definition has gained such momentum is dizzying. One can rightly say that the voice of only one generation has been heard. That is absolutely not the case with women's suffrage or slavery. The issues are at least in the way very very different.

      And what is it about THIS generation that gives it the right to redefine an institution as central to the very health of society. Is this generation such a paragon of wisdom, forbearance, longsuffering, and selfless love that we should trust them (us) to make such monumental change, and so quickly, and with such force!

      I am wary and concerned.

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    2. Regardless of whether it is one generation or one hundred, their argument remains the same.

      Does our understanding and beliefs about marriage, which are inherently rooted in religious belief, trump their understanding and beliefs? There is no simple answer, no matter much we wish there were. If the answer really were that simple, none of this would be happening.

      And believe me, I understand your concern. We have seen equal rights in European countries and in Canada morph into hate crimes legislation for those who disagree, even entering into the pulpit and having ministers sent to prison.

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    3. John, while my faith is firmly rooted in the Catholic Church, and I find peace beyond words within its walls, I have to say that I could not agree with you more. I have been trying to express what those nagging little questions were floating around in my mind, and now you have given me a voice. It makes me sad beyond belief, since I suspect that if we keep on fighting these battles in the courts, we may lose our credibility elsewhere. We have to realize that pushing our "beliefs" on to people who are not ready, or not open to them will only make things worse for all. God has lovingly created us with free will. He wants us to come to Him on our own. Even He does not push, and neither, I suspect, should we.

      I could be totally wrong, but you and the others have given all of us much to think about. And to pray about! Keep talking to each other...

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  4. I like the fact that you're putting forth a calm, intelligent debate. What I do disagree with is that the term "marriage" has always traditionally been between a man and a woman. A quick google results in a post about Victorian times and female marriages in the 19th century where women would be married to each other and it was called "female marriage".

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/21/gay-marriage-cougar-wives-victorians

    This is just a quick search without doing a significant amount of research.

    While we disagree on the definition of "marriage", I still am very happy that while you disagree, you are civil and polite about it. :)

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  5. The issue is that the gay community doesn't want to be alienated or discriminated in ANY way. And why should they be? Your definition of marriage is YOUR definition but not everyone's.

    I'm not gay but I am an atheist and I sympathize with their plight. Marriage is a socially constructed concept, it may have been constructed thousands of years ago but that doesn't change the fact that it was created by humans and therefore can be changed by humans.

    I personally don't want to get married for a lot of reasons, one being the fact that most people see it as a religious union. I feel societal pressure to get married every day. I'm a 23 year young female threatened by the idea of becoming an "old maid", which is ridiculous. I wish the word marriage didn't come with certain connotations because I want the rights of a married couple, but a civil union does NOT have all of those rights. Also, civil unions aren't even open to same-sex couples in most states so that's not an option to them.

    My point is: separation of church and state. In this country that is law but too many laws are still based on religious beliefs. The fact that homosexual marriages are illegal in most states is literally a crime under constitutional law. Marriage as a law and marriage as a religious practice are two different things. The church can handle it however they want but the government has an obligation to equality. So, if you want to redefine legal marriage, great, but it has to be redefined for EVERYONE.

    I am happy that you've acknowledged the fact that homosexuality is not a new thing but calling it a tendency is incorrect. Sexual orientation is a genetically determined trait. Watch this (it's from the discovery channel, so credible): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70I7Nag4Eu8

    In the words of one of my best friends: "I resent the term 'gay marriage', I don't gay drive, or gay sleep, or gay work, and would we get 'gay divorced'? No!"

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    1. "My point is: separation of church and state. In this country that is law but too many laws are still based on religious beliefs. "

      Laws aren't based on religious beliefs they just coincide with religious beliefs. Something isn't wrong because the church or the state says so. The church or the state says so because it is wrong. We don't need the church or the state to tell us murder is wrong--we know by reason it is.

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    2. "I am happy that you've acknowledged the fact that homosexuality is not a new thing but calling it a tendency is incorrect. Sexual orientation is a genetically determined trait. Watch this (it's from the discovery channel, so credible): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70I7Nag4Eu8"

      Paint in very broad strokes, don't you? I believe there may be some evidence for genetic predisposition, there is certainly no scientific consensus, nor evidence, for your claims. In fact, my own personal experience is just the opposite (not that anyone cares or needs to know but it is trauma based). As far as the Discovery Channel as being credible, that claim reminds me of the State Farm commercial where the woman believes that they can't put anything on the internet that isn't true.

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    3. Gerald - You're right MOST laws aren't based on religious beliefs but I haven't heard any other reason to ban same sex marriage besides "it's in the bible", or an iteration of the same thing. Most people agree that murder is morally wrong but that's not the case for gay marriage. They're entirely different topics.

      JasD - That video is presenting a recent study that explains how homosexuality could be evolutionarily possible. Like they said, there are still a lot of questions but studies like the one they discussed are working towards proving or disproving the theory that gay men and women were born that way. They are presenting just one of the many scientific studies on the subject. You're right, obviously not everything on the internet is true but this video isn't opinion based, it's a presentation of scientific findings. There is evidence, this isn't the only study on the subject. I don't know about every gay human being but a few that I have talked to about this have said their first crush as a little kid was on someone of the same sex and that's how they know they were born that way. Some realized it later in life but acknowledge that they always kind of knew. I won't say that it's impossible for environment to cause homosexuality but I think it more likely that a traumatic experience would cause emotional damage leading to asexuality or the realization that the person was gay all along. (that last part is just speculation on my part, I'm not a doctor or scientist)

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  6. From a Kabbalistic point of view, we should give them what they want because they want it. Simple. To be spiritual is to be in equivalence of form with the Creator. Love for no reason. If this is just a symbol that helps them feel like the world accepts them than that is exactly what a true friend would do. Love above reason. Remember that. God does not have rules, he only gives. Its when man decided to create religion that we lost our spiritual roots. You know this, you feel it, that's good.If you'd like to know more you are totally welcomed to my blog.

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    1. I don't know that, or feel it. At all. Everything you just said is the complete opposite of love and logic.

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  7. http://jarett11235.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-king-vs-me.html

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  8. You don't know me, but a friend posted this on facebook. I'll disclose that I'm on the other side of the aisle, but also ask that you hear me out.

    I want to thank you. You're honest, standing up for something incredibly important, respectful, and well-spoken. I would much rather read this than sensationalism on either side. It is this type of humbling oneself before others that draws us closer as human being. I believe dialogue - actual dialogue - is effective at humanizing each other. I want to apologize if anyone has called you a bigot, unfriended you, or slandered the Church. Please know that we're not all like that. And thank you again.

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  9. Excellent post. Saves me the trouble of trying to come up with my own. I can just share this one.

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  10. I came through to this post from Facebook, but it sounds to me like your radically missing the cruft of this argument.

    Marriage being between and a man and a women is only really explicitly consistent with a few religious ideologies. Christianity and Catholicism being the two most known. Obviously the most usual pairing is between a man and a female due to genetic reasons.

    This is not about "defending a definition", but about enforcing recognition of your religions values at the state level. Our government should not show preference to any religion. If you want to separate the terms, then go ahead and call your variant "true christian marriage", or simply (as a church) don't recognize it. The point is that the same opportunities, the SAME laws regarding issues of pairing, tax codes, and benefits, needs to be available to all pairings at the same social level (who need it for the same reasons male and female couples do), across the board. I am sure churches will form up that share these people's interpretations. I am not saying that the church should RECOGNIZE said marriage themselves. Japan didn't recognize Taiwan, you can choose to not recognize a gay marriage. But what your really asking the population to do, is show favoritism to your ideologies and interpretation thereof. That completely and utterly goes against the freedom of religion. It doesn't make sense to get married into a value system that disagrees with what you believe in, but i'm sure they can find a denomination or faith that fits their beliefs, or should be able to go to the COURT which should not be able to use religion in their argument (expecting their neighbors approval or recognition is another story). So if you can choose to not recognize it on a personal level, then isn't the rest simply an attempt to control and manipulate others to what you see as the light?

    I don't hold it against you, doctrine is a very efficient form of brainwashing.

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  11. All I have to say is please take a look at the following graph:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/World-Population-1800-2100.svg

    This is an ACTUAL number of humans on the planet over the past years, and how much it has increased over time... Take a look at where we are now. We have almost exceeded the maximal limit for our species... So if "marriage" never changes, and everyone is only legally able to marry the opposite sex with regards to procreation, can you take a wild guess at what will happen to our population, much less the planet we live on? Not to mention that our planet is already evolving because of our population. I have complete and utter respect for all religious beliefs, but seriously, if the only argument you have is based off of YOUR religious beliefs, you dont have very much of an argument. Try to throw in some factual, testable data and maybe you'll start convincing a few more people...

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  12. You should take the "dignified" out of your blog name. I feel so sorry for sheeple like you. There's a little something called separation of church and state, sweetie. Your zealotry does not get to dictate the laws in this country. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps your god is not the god of your neighbor? Didn't think so. P.S. marriage, historically speaking, has NEVER been defined as you would like to believe. Step away from the bible and go read some science and philosophy. And if you have such a distaste for homosexuals, tell your brethren to stop making gay babies.

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  13. I appreciate your temperate and compassionate stance, and your attempt to engage in a meaningful dialogue on this issue. There are certainly folks on both sides of it that seem to think the argument will be won by those that can employ hyperbole at the highest volume. Still, I have a couple of concerns with your post that I'd like to share.

    The first, and most important, concern regards the logic of your argument. I think you're making a mistake by asserting that expanding the definition of marriage would require us to make it limitless. Nobody is saying we should remove the definition from marriage, and allow it to mean anything at all. Rather, we want to REdefine it, that is, to give it a new, specific definition. Redefining marriage is not some Pandora's box that will unleash all possible definitions on the world. This new proposed definition must be considered on its own merits, not based on the merits of every definition you can think up. (As a timely, if somewhat silly, analogy, I don't hear anyone worrying that the Pope might wash the feet of 12 cats and dogs next Holy Thursday.)

    My second objection pertains to your view of marriage as it relates to procreation. For one thing, I don't hear you suggesting that infertile men and women should not be allowed to marry each other; marriage can be "ONLY about love and happiness" for them, apparently, but not for same-sex couples. (I feel some may be tempted to cite Abram and Sarai as a precedent in your favor; I don't think I have space to include my rebuttal here.) This double standard has been pointed out by others, though, and I have a more nuanced argument to make. I submit that this aspect of marriage is not, in fact, about procreation, but about parenthood. For much of human history, I reckon the two have been synonymous 99.9% of the time. And yet, I think you would agree that when a child is adopted into nurturing family, perhaps a couple unable to have children of their own, the lives of all involved are improved. Numerous scientific studies (along with what I would consider to be common sense) tell us that the ingredients for happy, successful children are loving, nurturing parents in a stable relationship, and that neither the genetic relationship between parent and child nor the sexes or genders of the parents override those factors. Marriage is a recognition and affirmation of that stable, loving, committed relationship, and it seems to me we should be recognizing and affirming those relationships wherever they arise.

    Next: "If this were simply a legal issue you wouldn't care if your union was called 'marriage' or 'civil union'... as long as it came with the same rights. Right?" While many people probably do care about the term, the fact is that the rights and the term are inextricably linked. I've heard many stories of couples in civil unions who are unable to obtain the same rights as married couples. We tried "separate but equal" before; it doesn't work out.

    Finally, a gentle critique regarding your tone and style. The first time you said, "you didn't know we agreed so much did you?" I winked right back at you. "Yeah," I agreed, "haha, lots of people focus entirely on the disagreements and don't appreciate the common ground." The second time you did it, though, it felt vaguely patronizing. By the third time, I felt like you were holding up a straw man, accusing me of being short-sighted and not giving me an opportunity to defend myself. As I said in the beginning, you've made an admirable and largely successful attempt to engage in dialogue, here. I think you will be even more successful in the future if you refrain from making tacit assumptions about your reader's state of mind.

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